Episode 41: Regulatory stewardship

This podcast introduces the concept of regulatory stewardship, widely used in New Zealand and Australia but less familiar in Europe. The Institute of Regulation Chair, Marcial Boo, speaks with Keith Manch and Adam Slater about what stewardship means in practice and how it supports effective, proportionate and fair regulatory systems.

The discussion highlights practical lessons for regulators in the UK, Ireland and beyond, including mapping the wider regulatory system, strengthening networks, improving collaboration between policy and delivery teams, building feedback mechanisms, and training staff to understand not only how regulation works but why it matters.

The podcast's central message is that regulation should be viewed as a living system that requires continuous care, learning and adaptation. Strong stewardship depends on collaboration, evidence, public trust and a sustained focus on outcomes.

Transcript

Marcial
Welcome to the regulation podcast from the Institute of Regulation. My name is Marcial Boo, chair of the Institute and a regulator myself. This month's podcast introduces the concept of regulatory stewardship. It's already familiar to many working in regulation in Australia and New Zealand, but less so in Europe.

Marcial
And our two speakers will help us to understand what it is and why it's important and what regulators in the UK and Ireland can learn from regulatory stewardship in the Southern Hemisphere.

Keith Manch
Thank you.

Marcial
So let's introduce them. Keith Manch is an experienced regulator and chief executive, and for many years he led the New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority, having previously been CEO at Maritime New Zealand and the Real Estate Authority.

Marcial
He's also worked in competition, consumer gambling and censorship regulation. Keith is currently Acting Deputy Director General Keith is currently Acting Deputy Director at New Zealand's Transport Agency.

Marcial
He's been involved for years in improving regulatory capacity and regulatory stewardship. Goodness, a lot of experience there. Welcome, Keith.

Keith Manch
Thanks, Marcial. I'm very pleased to be here.

Marcial
Also with us is Adam Slater, Chief Executive of the Australasian Environmental Law Enforcement and Regulators Network, which brings together environment regulators in that region. He's worked in regulatory policy and practice in many agencies, including the New Zealand Ministry for Regulation, and he was a director at the Australian National University School for Regulation and Global Governance. Welcome, Adam Tu.

Adam
G'day, g'day. Thanks so much for having me.

Marcial
Good stuff. Thanks. Now then, let's start with definitions.

Keith Manch
Okay.

Marcial
Regulation isn't just about legislation. We all know that. It's about systems. And all elements of a regulatory system- the rules, the regulators, the guidance, communication, practice, etc.- need to work together to shape behaviour and compliance among the regulated group.

Marcial
The New Zealand government says it's responsible for around 267, I think, regulatory systems. And I don't know how many there are in the UK. So that's regulatory systems. And then we have regulatory stewardship.

Marcial
The New Zealand Ministry for Regulation defines this as, quote, the governance, monitoring and care of regulatory systems, so that all parts work together to achieve policy goals effectively, proportionately and fairly. So that's the definition that I've got. Keith, starting with you, would you say that's a good definition of regulatory stewardship for someone new to the concept?

Keith Manch
Yeah, I think at a high level, it's fine. I'd add something to the end of it, like over time, to introduce an aspirational sense of looking to the future and also to emphasise the importance of regulation and drawing on Kerry Coglian, Easy here, both as a noun and a verb.

Keith Manch
That is, the regulatory policy and the regulatory practice evolved to be capable of dealing with today's challenges and opportunities, but are constantly evolving to deal with tomorrow's as well.

Marcial
Okay, so you're thinking about the regulatory system, but also how it's maintained over time. Adam, if you were explaining regulatory stewardship to somebody new to the concept, how would you go about doing it?

Adam
Yeah, I really like the idea of thinking about stewardship as being a bit like an orchestra. You know, every player needs to be excellent in their own right. But to create a symphony, you really all need to work together. And they need conductors, you know, leaders that can hold the whole picture while individual musicians focus on their part within that picture. So I think that's a nice way of summarising it.

Marcial
That's a lovely analogy, actually, because different types of music need different players playing different parts.

Marcial
So in different regulatory systems, I imagine, there are some components of that regulatory system that become more important if you're regulating, say, economists, you know, accountants, say, or you're regulating civil aviation.

Adam
Yeah, I think that's right. I do think that specific areas of regulation have different skill sets that everybody needs. But I do support the idea that regulation is regulation and to lift the capability of practitioners across regulation as a whole is a really helpful thing to do.

Marcial
Okay, all right.

Keith Manch
Absolutely.

Marcial
So that's kind of, that's a high level, as you say, Keith. So sticking with you, Adam, we've talked about some definitions, but let's move into the practice. And so how has regulatory stewardship as a concept worked in practice? Maybe you can give us some examples from Australia.

Adam
Yeah, look, I might give you a New Zealand example if that's okay.

Marcial
Okay.

Adam
So there's a body of water called the Hauraki Gulf in Auckland. It's enormous in recreational, cultural, and commercial significance. Multiple Māori, we have profound connections to it. But over successive years, it's been badly degraded. Everybody connected to it has memories of what it used to be. One of the key challenges is that you can't fix the Gulf through any one regulatory system or intervention. You know, it spans fisheries, it spans marine protection, biosecurity, whatnot, right? Multiple agencies and multiple regimes. So pulling one lever is not going You're going to have to work the whole system together.

Adam
One of the things that we developed as part of that work was a suite of ecosystem indicators to inform the success of the regulatory interventions that we were doing. So we did that in genuine collaboration with the communities that the system serves. So we had commercial fishers, recreational users, a really broad range of people.

Adam
And those indicators measured different aspects of the Gulf's health and enabled reporting back to the community in language that was relevant and was valuable to them. But those indicators also fed back into the ongoing work and enabled continuing adjustment of the delivery. You know, you carry out the intervention, you assess how it's landing, and you continually adjust. And I think that constant tinkering, as well as that future foresight part of regulatory stewardship that stewardship- that's really important; that's regulatory stewardship in practice. But I'd emphasise the point that I really see being able to demonstrate the value of regulation back to communities is itself an important part of stewardship. So regulation needs public support to maintain a social license. And so I think the ecosystem indicators served a dual purpose. They told us whether we were on track, but they also told the public whether their environment was improving. So I think that's a really key thing.

Marcial
Okay, right, that's really, really helpful. So you're looking broad, but you're also focusing on individual elements at the same time, and we're also finding a way to tell the public, who obviously are beneficiaries of regulatory systems, that the regulation is working in practice as well.

Marcial
Okay, cool. Good.  So Keith, obviously, you've run lots of regulators. So how have you put this kind of regulatory stewardship theory into practice yourself?

Keith Manch
And well, I'll start with an example that's probably got some similarities to Adams at the sort of operation, in some some ways, the operational level of stewardship relating to the system for ensuring safety in the port and harbour environment while I was at Maritime New Zealand.

Keith Manch
There are, of course, legal requirements in the Maritime Transport Act and in maritime rules that apply to that environment. But since 2004 there's been an enhanced focus on it because of the risk, and as people appreciate, in New Zealand ports, harbour environments are critical to New Zealand both in sort of social and economic terms, domestically, internationally, connection, that kind of thing.

Keith Manch
And there's a lot of risks, and there's a lot of complexity in that environment. There are several parties involved. There's the national regulator, there is regional government through their harbourmasters, there are port companies, and there are commercial recreational maritime organisations.

Keith Manch
The code of practice sets standards that, if you like, sit on top of the law and the relevant rules. And it was put in place in 2004, but it wasn't particularly working well in 2016.

Keith Manch
So we refresh we refreshed the approach to it with a thorough environmental scan. Literally, somebody went up and down the country, speaking to all of the relevant parties, understanding the issues and drawing out the themes that needed to be addressed to improve safety over time.

Keith Manch
Then we put in place a steering group for the code, so a tripartite one between regional councils, port companies and Maritime New Zealand. We developed working groups for all of the different elements of safety in that environment.

Keith Manch
We developed a peer review process involving people from across the network to go and assess each other's code responses.

Keith Manch
And we created annual and more regular information sharing sessions where we could all understand what was happening, how things were developing, what changes and improvements were required.

Keith Manch
And then in more recent years, there's been a commitment to this active stewardship through a four-yearly recommitment to an MOU that binds it all.

Keith Manch
And then in 2026 this year, there's been a complete refresh. This is obviously past my time at Maritime, but that's also perhaps an indication that this is a lasting and established part of the environment, if you like.

Keith Manch
And that reflects the collective experience, the expertise, and the dedication of the whole community of people to manage safety in this very important area.

Marcial
Fantastic. Okay, so I'm hearing, so a lovely example there, Keith, of how you've worked with partners to improve a system, obviously, over time, and that you've come back to it and you've looked at it again just to check that it's still working effectively.

Marcial
And these are the components of good regulation, obviously, and you're conceptualising that as regulatory stewardship.

Keith Manch
Yeah, that's right. If I could touch on also, I mean, I've been thinking about this in the context of sort of a strategic operational tactical framework. So if you think about stewardship at the strategic level, it's about a system, which is, I think, of many parts, as we've discussed.

Keith Manch
But perhaps in New Zealand, the Ministry for Regulations release just a day or so ago about the mapping the whole 267-odd regulators, regulators up and down the government systems and looking at how everything works together and looking through the lens, for example, of a regulated party and all of the different things that impact on them is a, I'd say, a version of contribution to a strategic kind of stewardship activity.

Keith Manch
Adam and I have talked about what I would class as operational stewardship. And then the tactical level might include picking up on issues with a particular law or rules or element of practice and capability and addressing that. I think the difference between what, you know, we might all say, well, hang on, we've always done that.

Keith Manch
is that when you introduce the stewardship concept, and you understand it as a kind of a mindset and a practice and a daily way of thinking about your system as a whole, you put yourself in the position to be proactive and anticipatory rather than reactive and restorative, if you like, and responding to failure. You're actually heading that off at the pass.

Keith Manch
It's a bit like a vaccination, right?

Marcial
Yep.

Keith Manch
It might not prevent regulatory failure, but hopefully it will reduce the incidence of it and the impact of it.

Marcial
Well, I really like it, I have to say. And it's a lovely model, and it's a good way of thinking, I think. So you mentioned preventing regulatory failure or trying to mitigate against that. But before I come onto that, I just want to come back to you, Adam, and pick up on something that you said earlier on about explaining regulatory stewardship to the people who are beneficiaries of regulation, you know, the consumers, the users of public services and taxpayers more generally. So, in your experience, how have you used regulatory stewardship to do that?

Adam
Well, I mean, I'd link back to the Hauraki Gulf example. It's about the, you know, regulation comes down to you're trying to solve a problem definition, right? And that problem definition is developed in conjunction with the communities for which it is relevant.

Adam
And so we go out, and we do our stakeholder engagement. We develop these policy processes and everything like that.

Adam
And then you implement it, and then you have to be able to go back and describe to the community what is happening. I think it also speaks to trust. So the Varian Public Service Reputation and Index serviced and surveyed 3,500 New Zealanders across this stuff, and their findings are really striking, right?

Adam
So agencies that are perceived as independent and expert-led scored significantly higher on that public reputation than those that are seen as politically controlled. And I think that neutrality is really essential for public trust.

Adam
And without that trust, you don't get voluntary compliance; you get resistance. And I think that feeds into giving people, giving ammunition to those that want to frame regulation as red tape rather than as being a force for good.

Keith Manch
Thank you.

Adam
And that's something that really makes the stewardship task harder. I hope that answered the question, okay, Marcial.

Marcial
Yeah, thank you, Adam. And it was just an interesting aside that you made. And I know that a lot of people working in regulation can struggle sometimes to explain to people what regulation is and why it's beneficial, because the narrative, obviously, often the political narrative, is about burdens and red tape and administration or that kind of thing.

Marcial
Okay, so I've heard from you both then that regulatory stewardship as a concept can be positive in the way that you think about regulation, the way that you communicate about regulation, but it can't all be plain sailing. And I'm sure there have been problems and gaps in the concept or opposition to it. So, Keith, how has an understanding of regulatory stewardship evolved, and how have you overcome problems?

Keith Manch
Yeah, and thanks, Marcel. It's a very good question. I think it's been a point of discussion for some time, and it probably started out as a discussion about policy, and then it evolved to include practice as well.

Keith Manch
I think one of the things that happens in or or has happened in organisations I've been in is people immediately go to, well, we do all of those things. We monitor what's going on and we... You go through a process of reviewing legislation, and we're always trying to build capability.

Keith Manch
So I think getting the idea through that what we're looking for here is a step up. We're not looking for old practices around, you know, you go through a cycle every 10 years to review your legislation. You're constantly monitoring; you're drawing on everything from complaints through to performance metrics. Importantly, I think the intelligence function, the insights, the evidence that most regulators, I think these days, are trying to build has become front and centre in terms of driving how you understand what you should be doing, how you should be intervening. But more importantly, it should tell you about how your system is operating.

Keith Manch
And I think the stewardship concept is around building, is wrapping all of that together, joining up the dots, not only in your own organisation, but looking at it from a system perspective, which is the critical thing.

Keith Manch
So it requires a much stronger focus on understanding the scope of the system and joining up all of the parties. Can I just refer to a little bit of research that was done last year in New Zealand, actually,

Keith Manch
Denny Kerdner, he was looking to get a sort of an empirical sense of how stewardship is played out in New Zealand. And his research showed, it was quite encouraging, that nine of our major agencies who have significant regulatory responsibilities were identified as making progress against key stewardship actions, which are defining and describing regulatory systems, having stewardship strategies, conducting assessments and reporting progress in the period 2013 to 24. Importantly,

Keith Manch
We've also introduced, since 2014, a regulatory systems amendment bill process. So typically in New Zealand, the history has been, and it may be the same in the UK and other places.

Keith Manch
You have statutes, amendments, bills every year for very technical changes that are non-controversial. And then you have reform programs that are usually framed around individual acts of parliament.

Keith Manch
These regulatory systems bills, they actually take a system view, and you can't actually pull together what you need without a stewardship view.

Keith Manch
And there have been something like 13 of those in the period, again, from 2016 to 24. They require a lot of negotiation with all of the parties in the system.

Keith Manch
They require the House Business Committee to have more or less unanimous agreement with them.

Keith Manch
But I think it's a really strong indicator that the system is starting to put in place processes and practices that truly reflect a stewardship view and mean that we're now sort of starting to see a move from always dealing with things as individual acts, because an act does not relate; an act is usually within a system with other acts rather than being the system itself here.

Marcial
It's narrow. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. OK, well, oh goodness me. I mean, I'm sure that there'll be lots of people listening to this who'll be wishing, not just in the UK, but in countries around the world, that parliamentarians across domains, not just individual departments, in individual sectors, can work together systemically to tackle complex problems, because that'ss that's what you're talking about.

Marcial
It's it's really encouraging to hear that it's happening.

Marcial
Adam, I'm just going to come back to you now because obviously you've got a lot of experience working across environmental regulators at the moment, and so can you reflect on what Keith has said and tell us about how you are applying ideas of regulatory stewardship in practice in that sector?

Adam Slater
Yeah, thanks, Marciel. I think the application of these sorts of ideas across the sector is probably a little bit patchy, just across the agencies that I've worked on and am kind of aware of.

Adam Slater
I think some agencies are genuinely embracing stewardship, you know, they're monitoring their systems, they're thinking that that whole of system that Keith keeps saying- only talking about- which is awesome, and they're engaging with communities about outcomes. I worked on this specifically at the Ministry for the Environment, and they were really, at the time, they were really empowering communities themselves with implementation. I thought that was really rare, you know, like genuine resourcing that was allocated to help get the community to get the outcomes. But of course, these things shift with changes in political priorities and in government direction.

Adam Slater
I think that's part of the challenge, but I think the work that Keith and I have shared throughout the podcast so far are really good examples of what's possible when you commit to it, and you have those feedback loops embedded into the work.

Keith Manch
Thank you.

Adam Slater
I think there are still agencies that may be where stewardship feels a little bit more like a compliance exercise. You know, they've got a strategy because they have to, but the day-to-day practice hasn't really changed. People are still going through the motions and processing applications or doing inspections, or whatever it is they might have to.

Adam Slater
And I think that it's- Keith mentioned this before, and I wholeheartedly agree, as I pretty much do with everything that Keith says, obviously- but I think it's a good thing to do. But it's about getting practitioners and people within the system to build that understanding of why we're here and what it is that we're trying to do.

Adam Slater
And I think that builds proactive actors within the system.

Adam Slater
And I think that's a really important thing to do.

Marcial
Yeah, that's fantastic. Good. Okay, so I'm going to move on. We've mentioned politics at different moments throughout, but I just want to ask you about the political perspective because obviously you know we're regulators and you know we understand all of the detail here. We're talking to regulators, and obviously some academics think about the theory of regulatory systems and so on and so forth. But politicians, as we all know, they want immediate action. They want to resolve problems. They want to kind of, you know, reduce red tape, whatever. Whatever their agenda is, and understandably.

Marcial
So how have you resolved any tension between the concept of regulatory stewardship and the political responsiveness that you need to demonstrate to? Adam, shall I stick with you and then I'll come to i'll come on to Keith?

Adam Slater
Yeah, look, I think there's always a tension. It's it's not really unique to any one country. You know, I think just reflecting on the situation in New Zealand, I think that what's really interesting about New Zealand is it's got the most explicit legislative framework for stewardship anywhere. It's in the Regulatory Standards Act that was passed last year. and government expectations there's this awesome dedicated ministry for regulation but i think even with all of that you know there's always a tension that we see in practice the minister chief executive relationship naturally involves that political direction and ministers are elected to be responsive to their constituency and that's legitimate democratic accountability but i think yeah obviously stewardship requires long-term thinking that sits uncomfortably sometimes with that short-term political responsiveness and i think The challenge is is how do public servants provide free and frank advice about system health and long-term consequences whilst also remaining responsive to the elected government of the day.

Marcial
Yeah, that's a problem for us all. Keith, any reflections on that before I move on to other things?

Keith Manch
Yeah, I think the history is that the political interest is all about new things, and stewardship really is a lot about maintaining the existing infrastructure, you know, what's already there in terms of our laws and our practices and our policies and that sort of thing.

Keith Manch
So yes, it's very hard to get time with politicians around this and with ministers. And I think that that will always be the case. And yeah, I'd agree with Adam. The long-term view that as a public servant you should be taking and working across governments and across political cycles is a massive tension.

Keith Manch
I've probably spoken with a sort of a glass half full approach to this. I wouldn't; my comments don't indicate that everything is rosy, right?

Keith Manch
I think we've got really good foundations in place, but it's going to take a lot of effort.

Keith Manch
The fact that we have a Ministry for Regulation that is actually doing specific regulatory reviews, driven by the Minister for Regulation, is probably also an indicator that stewardship isn't as good as it needs to be if we're truly going to be in a position where we're on top of things and constantly keeping the house in order.

Marcial
Yeah, well, we've spoken to your Minister for Regulation on a previous podcast, and it's a fascinating tension and one I know that everybody will experience in their own reality. So I'm going to come back to you, Adam, to ask about the transferability of some of this stuff that we've been talking about because obviously it's embedded in New Zealand and Australia in a way that, yeah, it isn't here in the UK and Ireland. So how has regulatory stewardship been applied differently in the countries that you know about, and what lessons can we bring to the UK and Ireland, Adam

Adam Slater
Yeah, thanks, Marceal. So New Zealand and Australia, they offer contrasting but complementary pictures on this stuff. So as I was talking about before, New Zealand's got that legislative infrastructure.

Adam Slater
So it's got those explicit obligations. It's got government expectations. Got that dedicated ministry that Keith and I have been talking about. Those are really good things. And stewardship is really embedded in New Zealand. You know, the concept is really widely understood across the public service.

Adam Slater
Maybe the regulatory community is a little bit less well developed than Australia at the moment, but that's, you know, only a temporary thing. I think Australia's got a little bit less explicit on the legislative side of things, but slightly stronger professional community infrastructure.

Adam Slater
There are communities like, like ALERT, like the NRCOB, that have built genuine practitioner communities that are focused on that knowledge exchange and professional development.

Adam Slater
I think for the UK and Ireland, got a real genuine opportunity to take the learnings of both of those things. You know, you could adopt New Zealand-style explicit stewardship obligations in the legislation; that'd be great. And one of the things that is working really well in New Zealand, as Keith mentioned, is a regulatory system amendment bill. You know, they've doubled the rate of legislative adaptation compared to relying solely on those statute amendment bills. But they also require... And I know that this is shocking given everything that we keep talking about, but really good cross-agency coordination.

Adam Slater
But that's New Zealand, you know. You could also build Australian-style professional community infrastructure as you've already done with the Institute of Regulation in your podcast. You know, I think one of your previous guests may have noticed and noted that the podcast is, in fact, of itself regulatory stewardship and practice, and I think that's really great.

Marcial
Yeah, well, that's that's that's very helpful, Adam. And certainly, we created the Institute of Regulation to develop that community in the UK and Ireland and looked to Australia and New Zealand in part for guidance when we were doing that five years ago. So, you know, we're learning from each other. It's very, very helpful. Keith, do you have advice for regulators in the UK and Ireland or indeed policymakers in government, whether politicians or civil servants, who might be thinking about replicating some of the good practice that you've been talking about?

Keith Manch
I think that I'd agree with Adam that, then and yes, talking with you five years ago or so, Marcial, I think, you know, in New Zealand, we were quite active in the kind of community development space.

Keith Manch
It's probably buttoned off a little in the last year or two. And I think there's scope to improve that and get back on the horse, if you like. I think the really critical thing is to see the system in terms of policy and practice.

Keith Manch
And think New Zealand's got a history of spending a lot of time networking in the policy environment. More recently, I'd say in the last decade, say, in practice. But the whole thing needs to come together.

Keith Manch
So... I think that the challenge that we always had in the G-Reg context, which was the vehicle for a lot of community activity up until it moved or the work moved to the Ministry for Regulation, was how you focus on the practice level, but also connect it to the policy level.

Keith Manch
And my feeling was always we need to get the practice activity up and running before we get sucked into the policy environment and we lose the focus. And I think it's the challenge, I think, is to keep the focus on both and to join them up.

Keith Manch
So the minister at the end of the Institute for Regulation, I don't know how much you engage with policymakers.

Keith Manch
And I think it's a matter of, you know, taking that whole-of-system view, which incidentally takes you back to stewardship.

Marcial
Yes, exactly. Well, the Institute of Regulation... we've got almost 100 members now, and we do engage with policymakers, and indeed we're having podcasts with politicians as well.

Marcial
But what you've both been talking about throughout this podcast is about a system, obviously, and a system has many, many components.

Marcial
And to make a system work effectively, you've got to cover all of these bases at the same time and look at all of these different things that are working in concert and make sure that just the individual, like coming back but to the very beginning, Adam, your analogy with the orchestra, that every single instrument is tuned.

Marcial
But also that they're all playing the same note, or rather they're playing the same score at the same time, and that it all sounds beautiful to the audience. I mean, that's a difficult thing to do. So it' it's a constantly it's a constant challenge, isn't it? Because society evolves, the economies evolve, geopolitics evolves, and regulation needs to evolve with it.

Marcial
So complex stuff, but very, very important. So I'd just like you to end by looking to the future and maybe giving us some ideas about how things need to evolve and how the principles of regulatory stewardship can support the better regulation of the future.

Marcial
Let me start with you, Adam.

Adam Slater
Yeah, thanks, Marcial. I think, you know, regulatory stewardship is here to stay because I think the underlying need is only getting more urgent. As you've mentioned, you know, systems are getting more complex.

Adam Slater
They cross boundaries. They've got multiple actors, and they still require long-term thinking. And I think the literature is suggesting that regulatory stewardship is becoming more embedded and it's surviving across political cycles, which is awesome.

Adam Slater
I think what I think is really critical to making sure that regulatory stewardship endures, as I mentioned earlier, is that public buy-in.

Adam Slater
I think if the public doesn't support regulation, doesn't understand what it's for and doesn't see it as a force for good, then that social licence erodes. And I think we're seeing that in some ways. I think the narrative that less regulation is better is gaining ground in ways that may be a little bit concerning to me. But I think if we can build genuine understanding with the public on what good regulation achieves, I think we give ourselves more space to practice stewardship properly.

Adam Slater
I think that we also need to get much better at helping regulators understand the purpose of the system that they're operating within, not just the rules and the processes, but again, coming back to the reason why we all exist and what it is that we're doing this for and what success looks like.

Adam Slater
I think most regulatory training focuses on what to do and how to do it, and very little of it asks why.

Adam Slater
And I think without that why, you get practitioners who follow process but don't exercise judgment. They might measure activity, but they can't say whether things are getting better. I think that concept of stewardship, that intimate, that ongoing care of systems, is a valuable asset. That's really fundamental. I think it's part of the public service tradition in New Zealand at this point in Australia.

Adam Slater
I think it's only going to become more important as we go. I think one last thing that I want to share is a Whakatauki from New Zealand. So that's Hawaka Eka Noa. And I think it speaks to the importance of collaboration and shared direction.

Adam Slater
So the reason I wanted to share that is that regulatory professionalism takes years to build.

Adam Slater
And I think as a broader community across several agencies and organisations and networks and countries, I think we really have the opportunity to create something really special and enduring that serves the needs of regulators for many years to come.

Adam Slater
And I think that's really exciting, and I think that's really boring to imagine, you know, what a large group of passionate people can do together. Yeah, I won't use Simon Corden's definition of a large group of regulators.

Adam Slater
I think he calls them a wonk of regulators. I think it's, you know, self-empowering or something like that. But yeah, I think it's really cool and awesome to imagine.

Marcial
Well in yeah well a large group of passionate people I mean goodness that's you know history has been changed for the better by but by by people along those lines so that's that's that's a lovely way to end Adam thank you very much finally Keith coming back to you you're had a long professional life in regulatory roles and, um you know, fantastic achievements. What would you say now, looking back to younger regulators who are looking to replicate your success, build on achievements such as yours and the concept of regulatory stewardship?

Marcial
What should they focus on?

Keith Manch
Yeah, thanks, Marcial. I think the we we need a generational, an intergenerational focus on this. So if we're talking about the new generation of younger regulators, if you like, many will start in specific functions.

Keith Manch
And I'd say that, you know, pay attention to that and do it well. But look around, be curious, be tenacious, understand how the system that you work in operates end to end.

Keith Manch
Pay attention to the legislation, understand the connections in the system, understand the connections between the operational functions and how they work together to deliver the outcome.

Keith Manch
Pay attention to how you can influence the things that don't work. Again, with curiosity and tenacity. And take the opportunities to build on and around your day-to-day experience.

Keith Manch
And lastly, I'd say if there is a network or a community in your neighbourhood or in your country or your region, get involved in it, whether or not your organisation is part of it. Because I think, you know, this will only carry through and it will only move to maturity if the new generation of regulators is gripping it up and running with it.

Keith Manch
And I think you know we've got the foundations in place in the way that Adam described them. And now it's, I think, it's for individual regulators to really put the effort in.

Marcial
Fantastic. Goodness me. Well, I obviously wholeheartedly endorse that, Keith, and um I'm just really grateful to you both for your time and for sharing your insight and expertise. It's been a really interesting, and I think important, conversation that we all need to learn from.

Marcial
And it's and it's not going to it's not going to go away, is it, all of these ideas and the challenges that we're facing. So thank you very much, both of you. Keith Manch, former chief executive of many New Zealand regulators, and Adam Slater, current Chief Executive of the Australian Environmental Law Enforcement and Regulators Network.

Marcial
Thanks to you both. Much for us to think about. Thanks also to our sound engineer, Neil Bowerman of Bowerman Audio Production. And I hope that those of you listening to this podcast have found the discussion as interesting as I have and important.

Marcial
Do let your colleagues know if so, and tune into future episodes of this regulation podcast with me, Marcial Boo, where we will discuss other issues of interest to regulators. And there's more material and events on the Institute of Regulation's website, ioregulation.org. And in the meantime, good luck with your own regulatory challenges and stay in touch to help regulation, wherever you are, become the best it can.

Marcial
Goodbye.